Curse

Fist of Thor · Sep 04, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

I brought GWEN for its storyline, which I think is awsome. I dont give a a flying f*ck about new armors. I dont see the matter of crying about grind.

For start, your whole real life is grind. Millions of people do the same work every day, from time to time, to get money.

Its not a faliure of goverment, culture, or the system of an MMO/CORPG. Its the faliure of basic human behavior.

No one force you to grind in GW. They dont kick you out if you dont do, unlike in RL work. I never farmed/grinded in GW ever and I've been here for 2 years. Yet I have 15k armor and a few titles which I'm proud of.

You can still go exploring, doing quests, roleplaying in some amazingly beautiful areas. All your armors and weapons are maxed already, its not necessary to get the new ones just because they are "new".

Unless somene is a retarded 8yr old geek whos only life purpose is to have more rank/armor/weapon to enlarge his e-penis.

Its surely a miserable purpose to play GW, or any other game....

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Quite the opposite, I liked it. Just as I enjoyed getting higher ranks, even though they were optional.

If the farming for max rank is so optional, can you tell me how I get I get the full skill effictiveness without it.

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Originally Posted by Diablo™

Because they can finish missions a couple minutes faster than you?

Yes

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Originally Posted by Diablo™

What about players who haven't even purchased EotN to begin with? What devastating disadvantage are they at? How can they ever beat another mission?!?

I realise you're being sarcastic, but I agree totally there shouldn't be skills that are more powerful than others - but thats a different discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

These PvE skills are bonuses, and benefit players almost immediately, even at rank 2. Anything beyond that is no different than the desire to reach a "titular level 20". But we can't forget, they're only bonuses, extra features to reward players who purchase EotN, not just those who grind for Norn reps.

Its very clear that you think its perfectly fine for one person to have a more powerful character than someone else and you and I are not going to see eye to eye as long as this is the case... so let me ask you this, if you'd invested yourself (and when you're talking about 1000's of hours, it is a personal investment) into Guildwars specifically because it was the only MMORPG where all characters were equal, wouldn't you be rightfully upset when design changes are made that compromise that?

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If the farming for max rank is so optional, can you tell me how I get I get the full skill effictiveness without it.

The option of getting it to begin with...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Its very clear that you think its perfectly fine for one person to have a more powerful character than someone else and you and I are not going to see eye to eye as long as this is the case... so let me ask you this, if you'd invested yourself (and when you're talking about 1000's of hours, it is a personal investment) into Guildwars specifically because it was the only MMORPG where all characters were equal, wouldn't you be rightfully upset when design changes are made that compromise that?

I think its good that you point this out, it's our key difference here. I don't believe in equal benefits, it would be very communist-like. I believe in equal opportunity, rewards and luxury for those who spent the effort.

This may seem like WoW, build WoW builds a dependency on it, Guild Wars does not. Beyond level 20, the benefits are very minor, but there ARE clear difference between those who spent the time, and those who did not. This, I believe, is a good thing.

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

The option of getting it to begin with...

But thats no option at all, to be on equal footing with other players you have to, and you're not given any other way to obtain them except to grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I think its good that you point this out, it's our key difference here. I don't believe in equal benefits, it would be very communist-like. I believe in equal opportunity, rewards and luxury for those who spent the effort.

I don't have a problem with luxuries for effort. Things like fissure armour and tormented weapons are fine because you can obtain them by grinding for hours or being smart for 5 minutes and they provide no in game advantage. The grind titles do nothing except reward time spent and a willingness chase carrots on sticks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

This may seem like WoW, build WoW builds a dependency on it, Guild Wars does not. Beyond level 20, the benefits are very minor, but there ARE clear difference between those who spent the time, and those who did not. This, I believe, is a good thing.

Do you also think its a good thing to introduce these equallities after selling the game for 2 years on the exact premise that there will be no advantage given to players who spend time grinding?

Kas · Sep 04, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Play a Korean MMORPG. See what grind really is like. Then come back and try complaining about the "grind" in Guildwars. Or even better... go play Vanguard.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

But thats no option at all, to be on equal footing with other players you have to, and you're not given any other way to obtain them except to grind.

You think its a competition...? To see who can beat the game first?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I don't have a problem with luxuries for effort. Things like fissure armour and tormented weapons are fine because you can obtain them by grinding for hours or being smart for 5 minutes and they provide no in game advantage. The grind titles do nothing except reward time spent and a willingness chase carrots on sticks.

Top Tier PvE skills is also luxuries, the benefit they provide is small compare to the things that matter. Again, if it wasn't a luxury, if it wasn't just another reward for time spent, it would've been added to all the chapters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Do you also think its a good thing to introduce these equallities after selling the game for 2 years on the exact premise that there will be no advantage given to players who spend time grinding?

Nothing was introduced, grinding rewards have always been in the game, ie. Obsidian armors, 15k etc...

These "advantages" you're talking about, they're the difference between a r5 and r7 skills... you're complaining that someone who spent time to raise their ranks to improve their skills are over advantageous, while there are plenty of other players satisfied with ranks lower than yours. While there are even players who haven't purchase EotN, completely unaware of the advantage you already have over them.... however minor they maybe. They're certainly not worried about it.

If you're rank 7, the only thing i would like is to get into a Pug with you, other than that, I should know that in time... anyone can reach rank 7. Just don't think that you have to have it right this very instant.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Cellar, you're clutching onto the idea that these new PvE skills are like those Lightbringer skills... that they're somehow more mandatory than a luxury. They're not. And no, we can't really beat a game with an

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

empty skillbar

We all need some core skills to play the game.

These PvE skills are the icing on a cake, but they're not the bread, they're fun to use but not what's needed to beat a game. We don't need any more rank than it's necessary to drop the last enemy's health to zero. Because in the end, that's all it matters, everything else is a luxury. And if you want luxury, you gotta work for it.

Lourens · Sep 04, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

The reason i bought gwen where the dunguens

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Cellar, you're clutching onto the idea that these new PvE skills are like those Lightbringer skills...

If you can't see how they're plainly superior to ordinary skills I'm not sure how I can illustrate it further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

that they're somehow more mandatory than a luxury. They're not. And no, we can't really beat a game with an (ed: empty skillbar)

this is not me, but it is a screen cap posted previously on these boards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

These PvE skills are the icing on a cake, but they're not the bread, they're fun to use but not what's needed to beat a game. We don't need any more rank than it's necessary to drop the last enemy's health to zero. Because in the end, that's all it matters, everything else is a luxury. And if you want luxury, you gotta work for it.

I imagine you'd make a great factory hand. The rest of us who believe in rewarding skill and inguninity rather than time spent will continue to let anet know that they're taking the game in the wrong direction.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If you can't see how they're plainly superior to ordinary skills I'm not sure how I can illustrate it further.

Their superiority benefits all who purchase EotN, and is still not mandatory. It's not like a r2 PvE skill is useless, again, back to the comparing ranks. Thinking this is somekind of competition, a race to the finish. This isn't PvP.

You already have a basket of goodies, you want more goodies? work for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

this is not me, but it is a screen cap posted previously on these boards.

Link broken. But since it says ThunderheadDone, i'm assuming its Thunderhead... in which case, that's a level. Show me one for the end of every campaign...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I imagine you'd make a great factory hand. The rest of us who believe in rewarding skill and inguninity rather than time spent will continue to let anet know that they're taking the game in the wrong direction.

Because newbs don't deserve a chance to play with you big boys right? The good will always be good, and the bad will just suck for life. Why practice? Time spent will never be able to beat "inguninity".

4 million members, sequel enroute, dozens of awards and international fanbase... Anet seems to be doing just fine in this "wrong direction".

Cebe · Sep 04, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

So, people like to complain that they don't want to have to "grind" to gain better PvE only skills? I'd just like to point out, and I'm pretty sure, that if ANet made it so you could gain the max title for any race by completing quests...that would also be considered Grinding. Then again, if everyone automatically got the max title for just completing the game that would be "too easy". To me, grinding for a title is something that is done over months. Gaining the high or max tiers of the reputation titles can probably be done in a matter of weeks, and that's with having a break to play with other characters.

Personally I've not used any of the PvE-Only skills yet. There are some I like, but most seem to be geared around physical damage dealers, none of whom I've really played about with in GW:EotN thus far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

that they're somehow more mandatory than a luxury. They're not. And no, we can't really beat a game with an (ed: empty skillbar)

this is not me, but it is a screen cap posted previously on these boards.

...and if the Henchmen had no skills either? I'm thinking Monk Henchmen in particular. That screenshot isn't showing you can beat the game with no skills...it's showing that you can beat the game with "7" hench and a leecher on normal mode...

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Personally I've not used any of the PvE-Only builds yet....

Actually they put a restriction of no more than 3 PvE-Only skills used at one time. A skill bar composed of PvE-only skills is not possible, they don't want these bonus skills to overshadow the ones that really matter.

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Link broken. But since it says ThunderheadDone, i'm assuming its Thunderhead... in which case, that's a level. Show me one for the end of every campaign...

Thats just digging your heels in when your shown to be wrong. People were doing thk with no skills on the original ai. The link works fine, check your browser.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Their superiority benefits all who purchase EotN, and is still not mandatory. It's not like a r2 PvE skill is useless, again, back to the comparing ranks. Thinking this is somekind of competition, a race to the finish. This isn't PvP.

You already have a basket of goodies, you want more goodies? work for it.

Because newbs don't deserve a chance to play with you big boys right? The good will always be good, and the bad will just suck for life. Why practice? Time spent will never be able to beat "inguninity".

I'm going to let Geoff Strain answer that one, because this is the exact phrase that I bought guild wars for.
http://www.arenanet.com/press/pr-030422.php

"Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

4 million members, sequel enroute, dozens of awards and international fanbase... Anet seems to be doing just fine in this "wrong direction".

They sold those 4million utits and received those awards on the paradym that they're leaving behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

...and if the Henchmen had no skills either? I'm thinking Monk Henchmen in particular. That screenshot isn't showing you can beat the game with no skills...it's showing that you can beat the game with "7" hench and a leecher on normal mode...

Luckily you don't need to type c-space for weeks to be able to use them at full effectiveness.

Perfected Shadow · Sep 04, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

At least make ALL pve titles account based, just like pvp titles are.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Thats just digging your heels in when your shown to be wrong. People were doing thk with no skills on the original ai. The link works fine, check your browser.

Shown wrong? How does someone beating the Thunderhead with no zero skills, demonstrate that these PvE skills are mandatory? Nice accomplishment for them, but do you expect everyone to be able to do this?

If you want me to, allow me to rephrase then. "Not everyone can beat the game with an empty skillbar."

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm going to let Geoff Strain answer that one, because this is the exact phrase that I bought guild wars for.
http://www.arenanet.com/press/pr-030422.php

"Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes."

They sold those 4million utits and received those awards on the paradym that they're leaving behind.

Seems like your beef is with Geoff Strain... that's not what I was sold on, and I'm not going to pretend I'm going to defend what Geoff said, you'll have to ask him personally.

But I can tell that what they've tried, with moderate success. New players, veteran players can pug together nicely... but of course there's that damn Obsidian armor right? So right from Prophecies, there's already a contradiction with the idea of a game entirely void of grind-prizes. Because they know, it's just not possible to have a lasting PvE game that completely eliminates the reward for time spent.

Since I can't tell what the hell is a "Paradym", I'm not sure what they're leaving behind. All I know is, they seem to be attracting more and more players so far... and I still love it just as much as the first day it was released.

If you want to leave on the account that some unnecessary ranks are too hard to get, so be it. You know where the door is.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

A fully grind-free PvE RPG game would be one where the player starts and ends with every armor, every skill, every weapon he'll ever need. And the only thing to do is to get from point A to point B... stomp a few monsters in between, and find a new game to play.

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Shown wrong? How does someone beating the Thunderhead with no zero skills, demonstrate that these PvE skills are mandatory? Nice accomplishment for them, but do you expect everyone to be able to do this?

If you want me to, allow me to rephrase then. "Not everyone can beat the game with an empty skillbar."

You're trying to use the fact that you can beat the game without pve skills as some indication that it makes them optional, I used ordinary skills as a counter example to illustrate how that line of reasoning is inherently flawed. I could equally have used starter wands or ascalon armour. Being able to complete the game with or without something does make it required or not - in game advantages do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Seems like your beef is with Geoff Strain... that's not what I was sold on, and I'm not going to pretend I'm going to defend what Geoff said, you'll have to ask him personally.

I don't have a "beef" with Geoff, that statement described GW up to 12 months ago exactly. The path GW started down since with these grind based skills are a recent addition and they're not a change for the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

But I can tell that what they've tried, with moderate success. New players, veteran players can pug together nicely... but of course there's that damn Obsidian armor right? So right from Prophecies, there's already a contradiction with the idea of a game entirely void of grind-prizes. Because they know, it's just not possible to have a lasting PvE game that completely eliminates the reward for time spent.

As I said earlier, you can get your obsidian by spending months of grinding or a few minutes of being observant. I got my first set by buying gargoyle skulls during the first wintersday for 50gc and selling candycanes at 600-1000g in march, for a total time investment of somewhere around 1 hr. My second set was even less work, and I'm sure most of the real traders in the game would laugh at how slowly I made money. If they gave you the choice of c-spacing for a number of weeks or playing difficult missions for a few hours I wouldn't have a complaint, but the fact is there is no way to get faction except by mindless grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Since I can't tell what the hell is a "Paradym", I'm not sure what they're leaving behind. All I know is, they seem to be attracting more and more players so far... and I still love it just as much as the first day it was released.

If you want to leave on the account that some unnecessary ranks are too hard to get, so be it. You know where the door is.

I'm not going anywhere, GW is still better than the second best game, but its definitely worse than the game I was playing 12 months ago, which is exactly why I'm taking the time to post on these forums - if I were leaving there would be no point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

A fully grind-free PvE RPG game would be one where the player starts and ends with every armor, every skill, every weapon he'll ever need. And the only thing to do is to get from point A to point B... stomp a few monsters in between, and find a new game to play.

You appear to confuse grind with gameplay. When you're doing something fun - its play (eg playing missions with friends). When you're doing something thats not fun - its grind (like clearing out Varajar Fells 20 times over with HH just to be able to use the pve skills properly).

Cebe · Sep 04, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Actually they put a restriction of no more than 3 PvE-Only skills used at one time. A skill bar composed of PvE-only skills is not possible, they don't want these bonus skills to overshadow the ones that really matter.

Sorry, that was a typo which I edited...I did in fact mean to type "skills"

As I have suspected for a while, my hands try to type faster than my brain can constuct sentences

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You appear to confuse grind with gameplay. When you're doing something fun - its play (eg playing missions with friends). When you're doing something thats not fun - its grind (like clearing out Varajar Fells 20 times over with HH just to be able to use the pve skills properly).

In which case the concept of "Grind" is subjective. Because one person says something is grind doesn't mean it is. There may well be people who enjoy clearing our Varajar Fells for Norn points. I, myself, don't dislike clearing Varajar Fells...there are worse places to farm for reputation / other generic points...and thus I don't consider clearing Varajar Fells purely for Norn reputation as Grind.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You're trying to use the fact that you can beat the game without pve skills as some indication that it makes them optional, I used ordinary skills as a counter example to illustrate how that line of reasoning is inherently flawed. I could equally have used starter wands or ascalon armour. Being able to complete the game with or without something does make it required or not - in game advantages do.

Beating the game using core skills happen all the time, beating the game (or Thunderhead) using nothing... so far I only have your screenshot as proof, quite out of the ordinary, you can't reasonably expect that to be considered standard tactics. Before Nightfall, people have been playing games without PvE skills all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I don't have a "beef" with Geoff, that statement described GW up to 12 months ago exactly. The path GW started down since with these grind based skills are a recent addition and they're not a change for the better.

Do let Geoff know then. Maybe he can share some insights. Personally I don't know what's Geoff's grand scheme is, but I bought the game for an entirely different reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

As I said earlier, you can get your obsidian by spending months of grinding or a few minutes of being observant. I got my first set by buying gargoyle skulls during the first wintersday for 50gc and selling candycanes at 600-1000g in march, for a total time investment of somewhere around 1 hr. My second set was even less work, and I'm sure most of the real traders in the game would laugh at how slowly I made money. If they gave you the choice of c-spacing for a number of weeks or playing difficult missions for a few hours I wouldn't have a complaint, but the fact is there is no way to get faction except by mindless grind.

Spamming WTS/WTB in local chat for an hour can be seen as more tiring as killing monsters. Frankly that's more than enough time to pull in a few more reputation points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm not going anywhere, GW is still better than the second best game, but its definitely worse than the game I was playing 12 months ago, which is exactly why I'm taking the time to post on these forums - if I were leaving there would be no point.

I'm glad you're staying. Again, if you're really concerned about these rank 8 folks beating the game 5 minutes faster than you, and think that this is going to destroy everything as we know... Geoff Strain should definitely hear from you.

Otherwise, maybe it's just that it's only been 5 days and we haven't even seen all the options in acquiring more reputation points? Because my whole point since the beginning, is that there is no need to rush to rank 8 in such short time, even if it's to improve these all-important PvE skills you're so concerned about. If you already finished all the missions and quests, maybe someone just needs to relax and slow down. If you had taken your time, I'm sure the estimated end results of all that questing, dungeon looting, and mission accomplishing would've net you more than enough reputations to use those PvE skills efficiently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You appear to confuse grind with gameplay. When you're doing something fun - its play (eg playing missions with friends). When you're doing something thats not fun - its grind (like clearing out Varajar Fells 20 times over with HH just to be able to use the pve skills properly).

I find buying and selling things in trade channel horrendously boring, but that's just me.

So I guess what's "fun" is really just a matter of opinion isn't it?

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Beating the game using core skills happen all the time, beating the game (or Thunderhead) using nothing... so far I only have your screenshot as proof, quite out of the ordinary, you can't reasonably expect that to be considered standard tactics. Before Nightfall, people have been playing games without PvE skills all the time.

None of which make PVE skills any less optional than the core ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Do let Geoff know then. Maybe he can share some insights. Personally I don't know what's Geoff's grand scheme is, but I bought the game for an entirely different reason.

Thats exactly what me and all the other people complaining about grind are doing here on fansites - letting anet know. These forums are the only conduit we have to let anet know how we feel about the changes they're making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Spamming WTS/WTB in local chat for an hour can be seen as more tiring as killing monsters. Frankly that's more than enough time to pull in a few more reputation points

.
There was no trade chat spamming involved. When you pass through a city see someone saying WTB X and you have X you open trade. Simple and absolutely grind or spamming required. My second set came from buying monstrous items direct from the material trader and selling them back at 5x the price - no trading involved at all that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I'm glad you're staying. Again, if you're really concerned about these rank 8 folks beating the game 5 minutes faster than you, and think that this is going to destroy everything as we know... Geoff Strain should definitely hear from you.

I'm sure these conversations are on the community report that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Otherwise, maybe it's just that it's only been 5 days and we haven't even seen all the options in acquiring more reputation points? Because my whole point since the beginning, is that there is no need to rush to rank 8 in such short time, even if it's to improve these all-important PvE skills you're so concerned about.

If they introduce new ways grindless to get reputation then great, thats exactly what wer're asking for! The entire point of posting here is to let anet know that this is what we want. Give us access to these skills without grind!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

If you already finished all the missions and quests, maybe someone just needs to relax and slow down. If you had taken your time, I'm sure the estimated end results of all that questing, dungeon looting, and mission accomplishing would've net you more than enough reputations to use those PvE skills efficiently.

I thought we'd been through this - playing slower doesn't give you more reputation. Currently the only way to get reputation is to kill things for the sake of killing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I find buying and selling things in trade channel horrendously boring, but that's just me.

So I guess what's "fun" is really just a matter of opinion isn't it?

I think its horrendously boring too and don't do it either, but yes "fun" is a matter of opinion. As long as GW provides a variety of "fun" way of getting faction for people that have "fun" in different ways everyone is happy - with the options available to us now, not everyone is happy.